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okay three I get
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happy New Year and welcome to Sputnik
orbiting the world with me George
Galloway and me gri now Mr churel
described the former Soviet Union as a
riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an
enigma if so North Korea has to class as
the most mind-twisting Rubik's Cube
wrapped inside a paradox the most
secretive country on the Earth has much
to be secret about surrounded by host
hostile nuclear armed bases sometimes
known as countries Japan and South Korea
which have previously invaded leaving up
to onethird of all North Koreans dead
and all within the lifetime of many
watching this so no wonder North Korea
has adopted the porcupine approach and
bristles with many sharp Spears thus it
will never be invaded again or so we
hope power has passed apparently
seamlessly from the great leader Kims to
the dear leader Kim Jong e and now to
his younger son Kim Jong-un I say
apparently seamlessly because recently
there has been a very domestic
difficulty involving the young one and
his uncle although they're Keen to point
out that Uncle Jang is not only
factionist filth and human scum he never
actually really was an uncle joining me
now to make sense of all this is
Britain's foremost China and North Korea
expert Keith Bennett who with me more
than a decade ago was responsible for
the establish
50 years after we invaded Korea of
diplomatic relations between the two
countries Keith very good to see you
again let's start with this question of
the uncle they say actually he wasn't an
uncle tell us how well in Korean terms
the way they understand family relations
he wouldn't be regarded as an uncle
because he's not a blood relative of Kim
Jong-un he was married to uh Kim
jong-un's Aunt the uh the sister of Kim
Jong-il although it's also understood uh
that the two of them had not been living
together uh for some years uh up to now
so close but no cigar uh as as such uh
but it is nonetheless quite an
extraordinary turn of events every
country has factional problems including
our own uh but they don't always lead to
someone being executed even in North
Korea did they deal with them harshly
how serious were the crimes that he
committed you've made a very interesting
point in that these things things don't
always end up this way in in North Korea
in fact you have to go back to the 1950s
before you can find anything remotely
comparable to what's happened and of
course in that time many officials have
have come up they've been promoted
demoted and dismissed and indeed uh Jang
himself was um dismissed from all his
posts on at least two previous occasions
o over the years and subsequently was
brought back and given another chance
and even uh give given more power it is
on the face of it uh a very harsh uh uh
outcome uh but it is actually an unusual
one I think it's seems very harsh in a
European context as you know there's
only one country left in Europe that
still maintains the death penalty
although if there was a referendum in
this country I think you and I both know
the way that the popular vote would go
on that particular one but the death
penalty on the other hand is endemic in
much of the rest of the world not least
the United States of America
and the United States government which
obviously loses no opportunity to attack
and and denigrate the government in
North Korea said that the execution of
Jang uh Illustrated the brutal uh and
inhuman nature of the regime there now
that that's all very well uh but this is
the same us Administration who's
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton quite
probably the next Democrat candidate for
president was able to gloat at the uh at
the very public lynching of another head
of state mam Gaddafi saying that we came
we saw he died so I think you have to
put some of the international reaction
into that context as for the crimes he
was of course accused uh and found
guilty of treason and at least according
to the official reports admitted the
crimes it was said that he tried to get
more and more of the national economy
under his control with a view to
Wrecking the economy ruining the
people's living standards and ultimately
staging a coup these would this would
obviously be considered treason in any
country particularly in North Korea
which as as you said rightly sees itself
as being in a state of Siege uh with a a
situation still outstanding from the the
Korean War which finished in 1953 only
with an Armistice and still no peace
treaty of course uh many people's only
interest in Korea unlike yours and mine
is whether or not the Situation's stable
uh this is a a nuclear armed state with
a huge military and so the question are
Rises is Kim Jong-un securely in power
well that's an inevitable question after
what's happened uh but the fact that it
has happened and things are going
on to me gives greater Credence to the
idea that things will be more stable now
than than they were hitherto uh
certainly since uh since the purging of
Jan kimjong and has kept up a very
hectic uh program of all sorts of public
engagements and everything else in
pongyang has been business as normal one
of his now regular visitors is a good
friend of mine Dennis Rodman the giant
American basketball player he seems to
have fallen in love with North Korea
tell us he does and uh I guess that uh
North North Korea sometimes has that
effect on people not least because the
reality of the country and although like
every country it has its problems but
the reality of the country is not the
same as the Hostile uh media
presentation and indeed sometimes
the Hostile media presentation does
people a favor when they go there
because maybe their expectations are so
low that uh things are inevitably a lot
better than than what they were
expecting but I find that Dennis Rodman
Kim Jong-un uh relationship friendship
indeed Dennis Rodman famously said on
his first meeting in to a full Stadium
you have a friend for life and he seems
to be keeping to his word I find that
friendship very interesting on a number
of levels it certainly shows that from
the top in North Korea from the very top
and contrary to what we are told in the
west that certainly at least on a peop
to- People level uh North Korea is open
to having normal and indeed friendly
relations with other countries including
uh the United States of America another
thing it builds feeds into is the long
history of a relationship between
African-Americans and North Korea uh
Kims uh the present Leader's grandfather
was a great friend of the Black Panther
Party and it also shows Kim jongan is
very interested in sports we we know
that but it shows a a great appreciation
of um the fact that sport can be used to
break down barriers and build
International understanding we all know
about that uh how Nelson Mandela used
that with the Rugby World Cup thanks to
the film Invictus uh we can recall the
pingpong diplomacy that opened the door
uh to relations again between the United
States and China and some viewers will
remember the 1966 World Cup where at at
least in middlesbor uh the North Koreans
huge
hit I'm sorry to tell you I remember
only two well they beat Italy 1 nil they
were 30-0 up against Portugal before the
great usabo uh overhauled that and uh
Portugal ran out winners in the end but
the North Korean football team in 1966
at the World Cup were a huge hit but
aren't the ladies team of the football
in North Korea very good oh they're
excellent and uh amongst North men it
seems to be a mixture of half admiration
and half um I get bit mild jealousy that
um North Koreans love football and uh
the fact that they've been in two World
Cups not withstanding they feel though
that the men are not really such good
footballers but that the ladies are are
brilliant uh they the North Korean
women's team uh did exceptionally well
in the Asian cup and of course they were
particular they were particularly proud
that they beat the United States
obviously has great them great resonance
and uh last year the uh ladies football
team from Middlesboro who all went out
uh who who were all amateurs went out
and played some exhibition and
Friendship Games in in North Korea
against the North Korean ladies by all
accounts the M middlesbor ladies had a
fantastic time and I think the North
Koreans are trying to send their ladies
back here on a reciprocal visit and what
about the state of the children what
about the education and the health
record
well I think if you put this into
historical perspective uh before 1945
Korea was a Japanese colony and when
Korea was liberated the country had just
a handful of University graduates so all
of this work began from scratch and the
very first factory that was built in
North Korea after the Japanese were
expelled was a Pencil Factory which I
think gives an indication of the
priorities North Korea was one of the
very first countries if not the first in
Asia to achieve uh 100% literacy and
they've always attached huge importance
to to education and and to healthcare uh
just one year ago Kim Jong-un made a
policy announcement which is in the
process of being implemented which will
institute uh 12year Universal and of
course free education uh in in Korea and
besides the schooling system you can go
to places like the school Children's
Palace uh in pongyang where some of the
facil ities that are available for
children for after school activities
would really be the Envy of of eon and
Harrow of course not every educational
establishment is like that throughout
the country not by any means but it
gives an indication of of what they're
uh aspiring to I think the other context
in which we have to put this is that
from the mid 1990s onward we had a
series of economic difficulties in in
North Korea which were occasioned by the
collapse of the Union which uh the
Soviet Union and the other East European
countries in ComiCon had accounted for
the overwhelming bulk of um North
Korea's trade and many of the inputs in
fertilizer and raw materials for their
economy were dependent on that suddenly
that was taken away and they had a whole
series of natural disasters year after
year floods droughts typhoons and so on
and these have inevitably had a a
negative uh impact on on education and
particularly on Health Care but
throughout that time unlike in other
countries including much wealthier
countries than North Korea education up
to University level has remained free
and all types of Health Care uh have
have remained free and the the head of
the UN World Health Organization a
Chinese lady from Hong Kong Dr Margaret
Chan did a very interesting report on
healthc care in in North Korea which is
which is well worth reading which
acknowledges the problems but at the
same time points out
that in many respects North Korea Still
Remains a model for developing countries
in terms of universal provision of of
health care which remains something to
which they're politically committed even
if there are some problems in delivery
at the moment well Keith we're going to
have to leave it there but it's time you
and I made a return visit to pongyang
we'll have to go and check it out we'll
ask Dennis to come with us we'll have a
wh of a Time Keith Bennett thanks very
much for joining us on the Sputnik after
the break we'll be looking at the
strange and sudden death of the world's
youngest country South Sudan we'll be
right
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back welcome back to Sputnik now as you
know perhaps I'm not a big fan of
breaking up countries at least not where
there is no pressing need to do so if I
believe that Korea is one and should be
reunited and Ireland ditto it follows
that I was a bitter opponent of the
partition of Sudan which in my lifetime
was a single country bigger than Western
Europe and ruled from Westminster where
I have sat for more than 25 years South
Sudan left taking 80% of the country's
oil wealth with it other separatist
struggles continue in the north and now
South Sudan the world's youngest country
has itself Fallen apart and the sides
are murdering each other with gay
abandon and all on top of one of the
world's richest oil fields joining us
now to discuss the question of what's
going on in Sudan is a very bright young
man of my acquaint and I academic
researcher studying African conflicts
and himself the son of one of the
historic leaders of the oldest Communist
party in Africa that of Sudan he is
Ahmed cabalo Ahmed welcome to the show
let's start first of all with South
Sudan it has only just been born now it
looks as if it might be dead what's your
analysis there's divisions in the South
that have never really been addressed
and these divisions were instigated by
the north for the whole divide and Rule
policy that they learned from the
colonial era and the the actions of the
president of South Sudan have have tried
to take it from uh the new democracy to
a dictatorship he dismissed his whole
cabinet he dismissed the vice president
over a conspiracy of a coup but there's
actually been no evidence of that and
now there is effectively not a coup but
a revolution led by the dismissed vice
president who's who and what's what on
either side well the vice president um
mha is from the newer Tri
and the president is from the Denker
tribe the Denker is the most populated
tribe in in South Sudan and the new is
the second most populate they've had
Conflict for over 20 years now there's
been massacres on both sides and and the
tension was never really addressed they
had a common enemy cartoon but now
that's gone they're going at each
other's throats and is it just tribal
any politics involved there is there is
definitely politics involved it's about
power and resources and who can get a a
piece of the pie like like he said Sudan
is is is a very oil rich country and in
in any African State oil can either be a
curse or a gift and what we're seeing
it's it's turned out to be the former
80% of Sudan's oil went with South Sudan
the big oil companies moved in uh other
uh actors like Israel for example Keen
to cause forther problems in the north
moved in uh heavily into the capital um
are is there any big Power involvement
in this new struggle between these two
personalities all all the big Power
supported the separate movement for
because the oil was there yeah it was
obvious South Sudan is a product of
geopolitical um differences between
China and the United States China's got
its hands in the north um the United
States wants to get his hands in the
South and that's why it's been working
on separation from around the late 80s
however the former great leader of the
SP M John garon didn't want separation
he wanted a new Sudan where people were
equal under the law and regardless of
ethnicity tribes and region however he
he his untimely death took away that
Vision one year ago exactly me and
George were in Sudan in harun and
omdurman and everything seemed very
stable and very beautiful indeed and now
few months later there was we saw all
this unrest going on and even in the
north the were bodies on the street
indeed we had to help with you and your
family get your father out of prison
just a few months after we'd left uh
Cartoon what's that all about if we can
understand the split inside the South
what's the split inside the north when
the South split it took a lot of the
rever you that the north relied on and
and that's kind of put a bandage over
the the Deep scar that that we've seen
in the South Military dictatorship
that's been going on now for over 20
years and the people are unhappy they
want a new
Sudan people of my age have seen nothing
but a military dictatorship they've got
better visions of a new San better
Visions for their children and there was
this political atmosphere political
tension in the air and all it needed was
that spark and the rise in oil prices
gas prices price in bread overnight
caused that spark and people out in the
street and my father was arrested just
because he wanted to exercise his right
to assembly and and and and to voice his
opinion about politics and Democratic
change so they arrested him without
charge for security reasons I mean they
arrested absolutely everyone on the
street the prisons were full women were
away from their children so there was
effectively there was no one to be out
on the streets protesting but all it
needs is that spark again all it needs
is well what's the spark going to be
because uh I I've met the president
bashier uh I must say I found him uh
quite impressive but he absolutely
pledged to me that he would not run
again uh for another presidential term
is he going back on that now he's filled
up his pocket so it's it's time time to
move On's he's made his money there's
reported there's nowhere he can move on
he's subject to Interpol warrants he's
staying in Sudan that's all he can do
but he's still traveling he's no one no
one's um taking that arrest Point
seriously no one's took it upon himself
to arrest him he's still traveling
freely he was even talking about going
to the United States so you think he
will keep his promise not to run again
in which case what happens at the next
election it's it's as you like to say
two cheeks of the same back if someone
replaces him it'll be the same policy
the same the same um serving interest of
the few fing up their bank accounts and
not working for the interest of the
sanese people yes but uh bashier has
some special uh talents he has a certain
Charisma and he had a certain position
in the military and in the sort of
paramilitary uh party which he he runs
I'm not sure there's another uh bashier
I mean it seems to me that uh Basher
will either change his mind and run
again because there isn't an alternative
or that when he goes the dam will break
and uh maybe some kind of revolutionary
process will emerge in Sudan well let's
hope so that's I mean I've been waiting
for it all my life for for a different
sedan M and I hope I hope you're right I
hope he steps down and and the Dam
breaks and the people rise up and try
try get some Freedom that they haven't
seen since the late ' 80s separation of
North and South was one thing but there
are actually a lot of people now
fighting to separate themselves out from
the rest of the people in the north
places like darur and other uh struggles
are they really separatist struggles do
they really want to establish another
country or can this somehow be resolved
without that I think it can be resolved
the Justice equality movement in Dara
actually not asking for a separate state
they're just asking to be involved all
the decisions are made in cartoon the
resources are directed in cartoon they
feel left out marginalized and it's been
going on since the colonial period they
they want to be involved they want the
same opportunities that the people in
cartoon get people have a vested
interest in in Breaking Sudan up do you
think that there is any way that the big
Powers will allow Sudan to remain united
we need somebody with with the same
narrative that John Garen had the
Justice equality movement of promoting
of a new Sudan that benefits people
Sudan has long been divided along
geographical lines tribal line ethnic
line well did the British uh Empire made
sure of that I mean they they were the
first ones to as it were as as it were
bifurcate the country uh not uh in state
governance terms like languages the the
people in the South they were not allow
not allowed to learn Arabic yeah yeah
and there was trade and travel
restricted there's effectively
politically socially segregated from one
another so it's a new year uh what's
going to happen in South Sudan now I
mean the big powers are trying to bring
the fighting under control they say the
United Nations involved even the Marines
the US Marines have been there is this
going to be allout war or will the talks
in Adis Ababa uh somehow bring it under
control well the upcoming peace talks
are fundamental for the future of Sudan
South Sudan they need to put the
political differences aside because if
they don't we could see a bloody Civil
War like like the ones we've seen
Somalia and Congo and Sudan could be
South Sudan could be divided again
furthermore the beyond the peace talks
there's great challenges ahead for South
Sudan the ethnic divisions that have
been prevalent for the for over 20 years
need to be addressed in some kind of
reconciliation process otherwise these
wars will keep happening over and over
again and South Sudan will change its
status from the world's youngest state
to the world's youngest failed State
Ahmed Cabello thanks for bringing us up
to date on the Sputnik thanks for having
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me well now it's your turn through our
social media review coming through our
portal rtor Sputnik gy what's rattling
the kitten says what do you think about
kitner being on the new two pound coin
any thoughts it's an outrage and if it
had come before Parliament I would have
laid an objection to it kitner wasn't
just the Butcher of the omor man in the
Sudan he didn't just according to Mr
Churchill allow his soldiers to dig up
the grave of the m
cut off the head from the skeleton and
play football with it he actually caused
the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
British people in the first World War I
mean how much blood do you have to
actually shed to get yourself on a
British 2 coin taes tkes uh replies to
my question what is happening in Sudan
says Round Up The Usual Suspects it's
all about oil and arms exporting
countries I kind of feel that I mean uh
Ahmed was very clear that uh it's been
misgoverned there's been some damned
awful dictators in Sudan no doubt but I
think that the very sight of such a huge
African country with so much potential
and so much potential wealth in the oil
and gas fines underneath it was just
waiting to be picked off by those who
make a living and a really good one out
of breaking such countries up you know
what I wonder and some some of the
tweets as well where are George cloy
Angelina Julie now have has their
contract finished to pop up well that's
a good point because it became
especially an American celebrity cause
the breakup uh of Sudan and a lot of
black people I think were misled into
believing that uh somehow the conflict
in Sudan was between nonblack Arabs and
black Africans whilst all sudanes are
African most Sudanese are Muslim right
and it ought to have been possible for
Muslims and Christians and animists to
coexist within the same state especially
a state with this potential about Korea
Joe Cook says post World War II Korean
Peninsula partitioned the South living
on the US Le Imperial design the north
now suffering constant us
interference well it is uh I mean North
Korea no doubt has also uh had its share
of bad governance no doubt uh at all
about that I mean if this Uncle Jang was
so bad how come Kim Jong-il
appointed Po in the first place but uh
there's no doubt that uh the United
States in killing such a huge number of
North Koreans in putting so many nuclear
weapons into Japan the ancient enemy of
the Koreans has contributed to a Siege
mentality on the peninsula at least in
the northern part Vinnie Irish says I
think it's a country run by a dictator
but I do not view him as an imminent
threat to the West no there's absolutely
no question of North Korea being a
threat to the West the threat is the
other way around but whether Kim Young
un with the emphasis on young age 30 is
really in command of events now we'll
have to wait and see Keith was not
ambivalent about that but he wasn't
absolutely certain either so we'll have
to keep a watching brief on that well
that's all the the tweets that we got
for this week which is a Pity because
that means that's all the time we've got
do keep the tweets coming on rtor
Sputnik that's it for me gatri and from
me George Galloway it's been marvelous
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